Women in Security - And Their Experiences (Part 1)

This will be a four-part series where we connect with women in security and discuss the information security industry around their experiences.

Brad and Evan start their new “Women in Security Series” this week. This will be a four-part series where they connect with women in the information security industry around their experiences. First is Renay Rutter, the Chief Operating Officer for FRSecure.

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Podcast Transcription:

[00:00:22] Evan Francen: Everyone episode 84 of the Unsecurity podcast is upon us. Wow. It’s already mid june june 15th 2020. The exact exact, I’m your host, Evan Francen and joining me as usual is Mr Brad Nigh good morning. You have to wait for me to say good morning and then you can say good morning.

[00:00:41] Brad Nigh: Sorry, I’m just so excited. Your first podcast. I was just excited man. What do you want?

[00:00:49] Evan Francen: This is like 84.

[00:00:52] Brad Nigh: We are professionals now.

[00:00:55] Evan Francen: Yeah, He before is a lot.

[00:00:59] Brad Nigh: It is

[00:01:01] Evan Francen: all right. Uh, so last week I mentioned uh, how you doing? You’re doing all right. We’re gonna get to that a little bit more

[00:01:08] Brad Nigh: after you. Uh,

[00:01:10] Evan Francen: you threw me off because you said good morning. Before I did

[00:01:13] Brad Nigh: keep things fresh.

[00:01:15] Evan Francen: Right? So last week I mentioned I want to do this um, a series, Women in Security on our show and you seem pretty excited about. You were actually pretty jacked.

[00:01:28] Brad Nigh: Yeah. But it also meant I first of all, I really agree with that. I think it’s a good idea, but it also means they don’t have to come up with a topic every other week.

[00:01:37] Evan Francen: Right? Yeah. Some weeks you struggle a little bit with that. That’s okay. Right. Well, I was talking about this for a couple weeks with a close friend of ours and an awesome business person, Renay Rutter. Renay has more than 30 years of it and business leadership experience and we’ve had the pleasure of working with our here and I are secure for the last two ish years. Uh, she’s currently fr secures chief operating officer and she’s pretty much kicking butt. So welcome to the show Renay.

[00:02:08] Renay Rutter: is this where I get to say something? Hey, hi. I didn’t want to interrupt you like Brad did and like start this off on the wrong foot or anything.

[00:02:17] Evan Francen: Well you show notes I sent them at 4:45 this morning.

[00:02:18] Renay Rutter: Hey, thank you for that.

[00:02:24] Evan Francen: Yeah. Uh, was that’s pretty good intro. Did I get everything right?

[00:02:26] Renay Rutter:  Super. Yeah. You just like boiled me down to just a couple of words and sentences. It’s perfect

[00:02:36] Evan Francen: It’s perfect on the, on the, on the show notes. There’s a link to if everybody wants to see that, like the real deal, like all the stuff, but it’s pretty impressive. I’m glad you’re here. So, uh, we have a lot to cover today before we jump into the meat of the show, we always check in and that’s kind of what we’re gonna do now brad. How you doing? How was your weekend?

[00:02:56] Brad Nigh: Good. I spent a lot of time outside. Tell them a little uh, we’ll paint. Yeah, rene observed. But it was good to get out and this, this wind has been ridiculous. Yeah.

[00:03:10] Evan Francen: Right. What you do outside

[00:03:13] Brad Nigh: uh finished up some landscaping stuff. We put uh you know like playing a bunch of lavender and small chain and you know, just getting outside of the house.

[00:03:25] Evan Francen: Yeah, I got your new bike.

[00:03:28] Brad Nigh: I didn’t, but it was so it was our son’s birthday on saturday and uh so I got to take his sisters to the store. Friday is the first time they’ve been out to the store since mid March when this whole thing started and to get some presents and they were pretty, pretty excited. It’s funny how just something so normal. It was a big deal. Yeah,

[00:03:53] Evan Francen: just kinda did some landscaping, did some stuff for the house.

[00:03:57] Brad Nigh: Big birthday party, you know, just us sisters decorated. They were super excited about surprising him. So it was really fun

[00:04:06] Evan Francen: Jeff cake.

[00:04:08] Brad Nigh: They made cake. I didn’t have to, I only had to help like hanging decorations. It was fantastic.

[00:04:13] Evan Francen: What kind of cake wasn’t?

[00:04:14] Brad Nigh: Uh 7 30. Oh, that’s a frosting. Yes, that was his required kind of frosting. The funds that were frosting to that little sprinkles in the prostate

[00:04:28] Renay Rutter: sprinkles makes everything better.

[00:04:32] Evan Francen: How was your week? How was your weekend?

[00:04:34] Renay Rutter: You know, I did, I did a lot of that outdoor stuff to out of walking, tons of walking er thing I call it er thing when I get outside a lot. Right, go barefoot a little bit as much as I can um walking and uh you know finding that a little more social aspect of things you know walking around, finding an outdoor patio, things like that. Um But just kept moving which is good. I like that.

[00:05:00] Evan Francen: How’s your ankle holding up?

[00:05:02] Renay Rutter: Awesome. I didn’t even notice it. I got a blister from walking but that’s a different problem.

[00:05:07] Evan Francen: Right right because you’re a runner too so that means you’re back on back

[00:05:13] Renay Rutter: back in business now. I just gotta start running again.

[00:05:18] Evan Francen: Do you ever run brad?

[00:05:20] Brad Nigh: Uh Yeah it’s not as much fun for me that’s why I prefer biking but yeah do brian?

[00:05:29] Evan Francen: Okay good. I just did uh built building a deck.

[00:05:36] Brad Nigh: Oh yeah you did if you need help let me know offered it. I got tools and

[00:05:41] Evan Francen: well I guess there’s that tool that you can use that. Well hold your deck boards together.

[00:05:48] Brad Nigh: It is most changing.

[00:05:50] Evan Francen: May I borrow that?

[00:05:51] Brad Nigh: Yes okay I’ll drop it off at some point

[00:05:56] Evan Francen: or I can swing by your house and I know that

[00:05:59] Brad Nigh: out.

[00:06:01] Evan Francen: Oh yeah

[00:06:02] Brad Nigh: yeah that’s fine anytime.

[00:06:05] Evan Francen: Okay and uh what else do I help the body? Uh He’s got like a 1960 something travel trailer until he gutted it and I um helped him on saturday. So a lot of stuff I did I did electrical work plumbing and uh deck stuff. Yeah no I don’t know if it’s nice but that’s what I did

[00:06:30] Renay Rutter: a lot of tools. Yeah

[00:06:33] Evan Francen: a lot of tools. A lot of like, I don’t know if you can see my hands, but there yeah, working working person’s hands anyway. All right. Do you remember last week? Last week was a blur for me?

[00:06:49] Renay Rutter: I kind of remember

[00:06:52] Evan Francen: uh Hell, alright. You texted me this weekend too. About

[00:07:00] Brad Nigh: an Ir Yeah. Hold off on talking about that one because there’s probably some legal seems over legal stuff going on. But

[00:07:09] Evan Francen: Well, now you tell me I’ve tweeted it.

[00:07:12] Brad Nigh: Well, we don’t know for sure on that. There was still pretty okay. It’s still early in it. But I would say at the minimum, the there was some MSP credentials that would look to be have been compromised. Now, whether or not, you know, they didn’t clean up some stuff and it was Mhm. You know, uh Just coincidence or not. We don’t know. Still too early on that. But it was definitely there’s a lot going on,

[00:07:48] Evan Francen: right, Well, I tweeted it and it went viral. So yeah,

[00:07:53] Renay Rutter: he’s messing with you brad. He’s messing with

[00:07:55] Evan Francen: you on

[00:07:56] Brad Nigh: twitter.

[00:07:58] Renay Rutter: We’re both

[00:07:59] Brad Nigh: twits

[00:08:00] Renay Rutter: now.

[00:08:02] Brad Nigh: Yeah, those guys are doing an amazing job. It was it was actually Oscar that found some of the stuff and it was, you know, making calls back to IPs to the MSP and using an MSP named account. It was a domain admin and, you know, encoded Power shell yet. Again, you know,

[00:08:24] Evan Francen: stuff like

[00:08:24] Brad Nigh: that. I can’t confirm it at this point, but it’s definitely uh yeah, it’s interesting.

[00:08:34] Evan Francen: Well, that’s cool. All right, well, we’ll talk about more about that, maybe someday, uh other things. So we have the, when, when was it last week? It was the week before, when we finished up the fr secure was GSP mentor program two weeks ago, two weeks ago already.

[00:08:52] Renay Rutter: So not last week, the week before we did the quizzes, like the Wednesday before last week,

[00:08:57] Evan Francen: it seemed like it was last week for a minute there.

[00:09:00] Brad Nigh: It’s called a blur.

[00:09:02] Evan Francen: Yeah, so it was really good. I want to talk about that really quick. I thought it was really awesome that this class was the best one yet. We had 1,444 people registered for this class. Uh you know, there’s always that significant attrition. You know, I think people are like, oh God, or they, maybe it’s not the learning format that they want or they just watched the videos later on. So there’s all kinds of reasons why people kind of tail off at the end,

[00:09:33] Brad Nigh: we still had Like 200 plus youth are active viewers. The last from educational lecture class, not the so

[00:09:47] Evan Francen: yeah, I had technical issues. And then one time I forgot my laptop at the office,

[00:09:53] Renay Rutter: I was a was a Diehard loyal attendee on that one. I mean every single one. No,

[00:09:59] Evan Francen: I love how you gave me the feedback, give us feedback on it.

[00:10:04] Renay Rutter: It

[00:10:05] Evan Francen: was really cool to to have three instructors this year. So myself, you and Ryan,

[00:10:10] Brad Nigh: it’s amazing what a difference that made. I can only imagine how much of a relief it was from when I started helping because the two of us has been like, like, oh, and now I just have a brian help out was it was a huge help.

[00:10:24] Evan Francen: Yeah. How many, how many have you done now Or 3rd or 4th? Right, okay, so the first seven, we’re just me,

[00:10:33] Brad Nigh: right, this is for

[00:10:34] Evan Francen: that was hard, but I was younger than I had more energy. I was, you know, younger

[00:10:43] Renay Rutter: you still have energy.

[00:10:45] Evan Francen: No,

[00:10:46] Renay Rutter: you’re just faking it.

[00:10:47] Brad Nigh: Yeah, it’s all that caffeine you’re drinking.

[00:10:50] Renay Rutter: Yeah, can’t

[00:10:52] Brad Nigh: coffee.

[00:10:55] Evan Francen: Maybe I’ll tell you what time I got up this morning. Uh and I thought it was really cool to brand Brandon, you know, reached out and said we had 5,398 views of session one. So that would be the one that would always get the most views because again it tails off at the end, you know, because each session is two hours long. It’s hard to kind of keep it his attention for two hours, Trying to get my attention for like two minutes, two hours a long time

[00:11:24] Brad Nigh: and it’s not the most exciting stuff.

[00:11:28] Evan Francen: Speak for yourself man.

[00:11:31] Renay Rutter: Yeah. You know, I could offer my opinion on that because I’ll tell you, I’m thinking, yeah, there was some dry material, but just the exposure. I had an I. T. Industry up until now when I joined the session kept me interested in the material and yeah, there was maybe a deep dive or to where my brain just said you’re gonna have to memorize this stuff. And so then it kind of checks out while you go through it. Um, but you know, that was sporadic here and there. I just found the whole thing fascinating. Um, and how it all ties together. I also have a new appreciation for how smart brad is.

[00:12:10] Evan Francen: Yes, I already knew to

[00:12:11] Renay Rutter: yeah, it’s not that I didn’t know, but you kind of see it in action. You’re like, wow, that guy is pretty smart. Don’t let it go to your head now brad because I’m still going to boss you. I expect nothing

[00:12:25] Evan Francen: less. His pink faces turning pinker.

[00:12:28] Brad Nigh: I was pink so you can’t see me blushing.

[00:12:32] Renay Rutter: That’s yeah, I totally enjoyed that though. I really did right up until the end when you’re doing the quiz questions, it was

[00:12:41] Evan Francen: great. 50 400 views. A lot of views.

[00:12:45] Renay Rutter: It is

[00:12:47] Evan Francen: CSP stuff.

[00:12:49] Brad Nigh: It’s not publicized or anything. It’s just organic traffic.

[00:12:53] Renay Rutter: Yes. Just think what you’re doing for the industry, right? You’re fixing it little by little

[00:12:59] Evan Francen: trying. Yeah. And it’s a team effort man. It was so cool to this class in particular having the three instructors because that meant that, you know, we only had to teach once every couple weeks really, uh, which was really nice. It was kind of cool to watch you guys do your piece. And then, um, we had a bunch of people already tell us that they passed. Yeah, I don’t know. I’ve seen like a dozen, maybe

[00:13:25] Brad Nigh: at least.

[00:13:27] Evan Francen: Yeah, yeah, that’s really cool to see people pass their exam and then moving on and a few of them said that they were going to pay it forward. Uh, so hopefully do their own mentoring and teaching. Yeah, I didn’t ask them specifically, but um, yeah, hopefully something like that, you know, they should, you know, and for people for the listeners who have never heard of the CSP metro program. It’s our free information security training program. Really. We teach you everything you need to know about the CSP and then teach you some stuff you can forget after right taught by me, you and Ryan, I don’t know what does that combine? Maybe 70 years of experience, something like that.

[00:14:14] Brad Nigh: Yes. Um,

[00:14:16] Evan Francen: uh, and then Renay yeah, you’re our guest, your, you are a guest here and you’re on the show. That was cool. I mean, you were on the

[00:14:26] Renay Rutter: podcast with the class, the class, the training, the mentor training. What day

[00:14:30] Evan Francen: is today? My God,

[00:14:32] Renay Rutter: it’s june 15th.

[00:14:34] Evan Francen: All right. Anyway, great session. Really excited about, you know, next year, I want to get us, you know, somehow in a way where we can do this perpetually always be always be teaching, you know, throughout the year. And if we share it well, you know, maybe I only have to teach once a month, you know, get other instructors, maybe some of those people that say they want to pay it forward. Bring him in, right. I just got it. We got an email I think just yesterday about somebody who passed their examine and I even offered to come and teach. Okay, So how many would we need to do that? five. Six instructors maybe.

[00:15:14] Renay Rutter: How many sessions were there again? About 12. 11. Yeah,

[00:15:20] Evan Francen: definitely. It’ll be fun. And then um yeah, so 11 years. This was the 11th year. Uh Big thank you to you brad because you stepped up. I never asked you to ever teach. You just remember, you know, the first year you came to work here, you’re like, I’ll help, I want to do that. Uh So you set the example, you set the example and I think getting Ryan involved just made it that much easier than you already. Yeah. And then we also had a bunch of people behind the scenes. I don’t think they get thanked very often. So, Brandon Mattis are fr secure content marketing specialist. That’s a lot of work. I mean, he had to email. I don’t know, that was almost a full time job, just right there. Yeah, Laurie Blair also helped, you know, as one of the moderators. And so Lori might be uh on our show in the next couple of weeks as another guest as we talked through this women and insecurity series, Ryan Abraham. Uh also, you know, as a moderator online, Ryan’s always gonna step up to really love that, Laurie, my God, she’s got more experience than all of us. Yeah, she’s amazing. And then chats Putin. So these are people that helped, you know, they don’t know if people knew knew that, but

[00:16:46] Brad Nigh: they were on I think almost all of them, It’s not all of them, all three of them moderating online. one. Yeah. They did a great job.

[00:16:57] Evan Francen: So that that that means they give their giving up at least four hours of their personal time to moderate, right? And there’s also other stuff, you know, they do. So yeah, it’s a commitment All right. So now on to our series topic in the in there are numerous reasons you’re here Renay. But this is kind of the big reason because you’re not a man. And so we want to get your perspective on women in information security because it’s so much different than if me and brad were talking about it, right? Because we don’t walk in your shoes. You don’t have the blister that you got this weekend. We don’t have the legal pain. We certainly certainly can’t run like you do. Uh But I think this is the start of something cool. You know, I want to want to do more of this, I want to get more people’s perspectives other than just me and you brad. Um so we’re gonna take a big portion of the next four shows at least, you know, because the four shows will take some of our people here. But then do we want to get people from outside of fr secure outside of our circle and get even more perspective? I think there’s an opportunity there. Um and let’s get honest, let’s talk about women in the information security industry. You know, questions do we have, do we have a shortage of women in the information security industry? Some people would say, well obviously we do, right? But some people probably would argue that we don’t. Right? So, you know, talking that through and some people might find it surprising. Certainly some of the new people in our industry might be, may not know that perspective. Um while the topic topic is important for us to talk about uh why is it a big deal? The hat, you know, if we so we have a shortage of women in our industry. Is that a big deal? And why is it? You know, I think there’s just a lot of things we can uncover and all this stuff. So well, better to start it off with than you Renay

[00:19:07] Renay Rutter: uh thanks. I uh you know, how to really start this. I felt myself. Is it a big deal? How many other industries are there where people will say there’s not a lot of female representation, right? So in my mind I want to make sure that we’re addressing it for for the purpose of you know improving the security industry not necessarily representing female, right? Um are women. And so I think to myself you know what are some of the reasons and I just in one way I don’t know that all women are encouraged the same way men are in certain fields, right? Um That’s changed over time in probably the legal industries, medical industries, right? Um And security industries, you know it’s a little fresher. Um I don’t know the statistics on I. T. Industry in general and either one of you have that off the top of your head. But um I think the more women are involved in the industry the more the more we expand our thinking and that’s kind of what you guys are looking for. Right?

[00:20:11] Brad Nigh: Yeah. I’ll say from my experience in I. T. It’s probably Ball parking at 2025%. It’s really low.

[00:20:23] Renay Rutter: Yeah. So what’s you know what’s your first inclination as to why you think that is?

[00:20:28] Brad Nigh: Hi. Yeah. Hey it is still like you said, you know still relatively new in terms of an industry really it only started picking up what mid nineties maybe you know as a big kind of everybody has a computer. So I think there’s you know I would say that where women are maybe aren’t having been as encouraged for that that stem side of things. And so it’s just kind of stemming stemming from that. I caught myself I didn’t mean to do that. But yeah

[00:21:09] Evan Francen: so it is the

[00:21:10] Renay Rutter: question. I missed the question. It’s like what what’s your what is why? Why do you think there are fewer women in the security industry or I. T. Industry though? Why do you think that is?

[00:21:21] Evan Francen: Yeah. I think traditionally I think a lot of women uh you know parents don’t really bring it up as a potential thing. You know I mean I’ve cut you have raised five Children and um I don’t know if I really pushed my women, my women my daughter’s into tech as much as I did boys. Just naturally because I think just in our society, you know when I look back and think of how I’ve talked to my own daughters. Um but I was looking at the math, the statistics when you asked, you know what percentage of women. So 47% of all employed adults in the US as of 2015 were women. So almost half I think that’s that gap is even narrowed or maybe it’s even flipped. I think there might be more women today. Uh in 2015 they held 25% of the IT jobs.

[00:22:20] Brad Nigh: All right. Yeah. Right on.

[00:22:23] Renay Rutter: Yeah you were you’re so smart bread. Well you know it’s even when you think about women’s jobs, what kind of industries are they? Are they is there any psychology behind how the male and female brain work that maybe attract them to certain industries? Maybe it’s not all nurture some of its nurture some of its you know and environment some of it’s just the way we’re wired. But that said it doesn’t mean that how our brains are wired would be more valuable when it’s in a technical field. Right.

[00:22:57] Evan Francen: Well I think uh just traditional like gender roles seem like you know like girls typically play you know at least when I was a kid I’m not girls would play with barbies and things like that. Boys would play with race cars. You know what I mean? I think maybe that played a role you know because my mother was one of the first you know I. T. People I think for women I mean she was just very much uh kind of an on an island. And I think if you think back to you know 30 years ago when you started an IT. What was it like for you?

[00:23:36] Renay Rutter: Uh I actually truthfully speaking I didn’t really pay attention to how many other women versus men there were because it’s just the way I’m personally wired. Um And even when I grew up I mean oldest of five kids. So my parents encouraged us all, however they encouraged us, right? Whatever they did, they did something right? Because I think confidence has a lot to do with whatever field you’re in. And so I got plenty of confidence and I think, uh, and we played by the way with those really cool race cars and race tracks, just as much as we held out the books, I don’t know, I think I had one barbie, but again, everybody is unique and I think that’s part of, I want to be careful not to stereotype a little bit. I think everybody is unique and has unique circumstances and personal drive for things, but when I got into the industry, I just um, was exposed to technology and somebody was willing to explain what it was to me now, the fact that those somebody’s were mostly men early on in my career, I didn’t even compute, it just didn’t compute. Um but the more more I realized that I would learn more hanging around with people who would share that technical stuff. Um the more I realized I wanted to learn more about it, that makes sense. So I just paid attention and then I always like to tug somebody along with me, like, it taught somebody, hey, did you see this cool thing that this guy did, you know? Um and so you bring people into it, but personally, I didn’t feel different, I just didn’t, so maybe I saw a good way to kick off this whole theories, but I didn’t feel different, there’s lots of, probably some perspective I can still share with you, but I just didn’t feel different. I didn’t want society make me think I’m a woman and everybody else in this meeting is a man. Now, once in a while I would notice that, but for the most part I felt like an equal, acted like an equal and expected to be treated like one. Mhm

[00:25:33] Evan Francen: Has that changed at all since you first got into it?

[00:25:37] Renay Rutter: What part changed how I feel or how I’m treated? Sure. Uh this is a trick question? Um um No, I think maybe in my wisdom and old age I might be a little more aware of it than I was before because I was always perpetual motion. What’s that next thing to learn that next smart, smart person to hang around? You know, when I say how much I appreciate bread smartness, I meant that because that’s how I like to be like to be around people who are smart or who you can tell are smart and maybe it’s just the mechanical part of me that wants to know how things work. That made me hang out more with men I suppose. But again, who knows why that was, Has it changed it? Yeah, sometimes I noticed things and I thought, you know, that’s not really right and I got to have to fit it into my, my reasoning of circle of influence and circle of concerns or something I can do to fix that. And sometimes I might get right up in somebody’s face and say, hey, I’m in this conversation to, I’ve had that happen a couple of times insecurity. Maybe networking events, I think brad. Are you there for one of my favorites?

[00:26:51] Brad Nigh: A couple? I’m not your favorite. But yeah, I remember. But

[00:26:59] Renay Rutter: sometimes you’ll ask a question and you may be standing in a group with maybe mayor, a small group networking four or five people standing around making small talk and you’re finding out what each person is doing, right. Some there are some people who will only want to know what the brad is doing or what the event is doing and they kind of gloss over that. Renay is standing in the circle, right? But Renay doesn’t take that to personally Renay says, hey, I have a question. What about this? Can you talk about this in your career and they will look at a different man in the group to answer the question and then maybe even gloss over part of my question. So I call people out once in a while and say, well you didn’t answer my question. Uh sometimes they get a little surprised by that, but I’m not really in your face and just reminding people

[00:27:47] Brad Nigh: it’s okay, you’re you’re in our face and that’s

[00:27:49] Renay Rutter: okay. But you know, what would you say that about a guy who did that, you wouldn’t say all that guys always in my face. But you kind of remember it when a woman is in your face.

[00:28:01] Evan Francen: So that’s one thing that you want us. That’s different with the way women are treated in our industry than men or night in general maybe? Or is that just in general general?

[00:28:12] Renay Rutter: Um It could be probably in general general. It’s just my exposure is more I. T. Stuff and I um insecurity but I don’t do a lot of the softer stuff. I like, you know the stem circles if you will. Um But even leadership classes. I’m in a leadership class right now there are two women and 22 men in it. Uh huh. Um But you know women again not trying to be too stereotypical and strength, we tend to be able to communicate a little more efficiently in certain circles. Right? So I think that’s good because sometimes when all those thoughts are out there a woman will help pulling together and that’s maybe where I see an edge women might have if we had more of them in security.

[00:29:02] Brad Nigh: You know, I’m thinking when you said that about you know the in your face and with some of our clients and the female leaders and I think mm I can definitely think of by three that are that I would say I don’t want to sound dismissive of in your face. Like to me that’s a good thing, right? You don’t you’re not sugarcoating it. You’re just, hey, it is what it is. Here’s the reality go and of those I can like they’re all the exact same, very much direct. Here’s what’s going on here is the problem. Just go figure it out and I’m sort of more of a confidence thing.

[00:29:48] Renay Rutter: I think confidence has a lot to do with it brand. I would totally

[00:29:51] Brad Nigh: agree. It’s interesting

[00:29:55] Evan Francen: because it is it, is it more important for a woman to have that than a man

[00:30:02] Brad Nigh: personally? I think, I mean, I think maybe there’s a lot of men that have confidence that maybe you shouldn’t And are willing to just put it out there and then there’s probably more women that aren’t feeling as confident because it’s what 25% of the T and a smaller number and insecurity. So you’re clearly the minority. So is it a copy will

[00:30:26] Renay Rutter: Yeah, well, and being direct is appreciated by some of us more than others and I happen to appreciate directness. Um, and being direct is um, is a skill. It’s also a skill to organize your thoughts such that you can put them out there in a direct fashion, right? And maybe, you know, it’s almost a, it’s almost aggressiveness when you do that. And maybe boys were encouraged to be more aggressive on the playground or hey, let’s fight it out kind of thing, whereas women, you know, are the girls may be reasoned and talked more and again, I don’t want to stereotype it, but it’s still kind of, you know, how the world has been evolving and if you get a woman who’s a little more aggressive and direct, some people pause or even better pay more attention because they’re not used to it. So that’s where I think we might have some leverage.

[00:31:18] Evan Francen: Yeah. And I, and I, you know, and not all stereotypes are bad either, Right? So, I mean, even if you are stereotyping, I mean, you have to speak in general terms because we’re talking about women, right? We’re not talking about a specific woman. Um, you know, my mother who, you know, I respect immensely for a lot of things. Uh, she’s definitely not your sterile stereotypical woman. Uh, you know, I mean when of all the women I’ve met, you know, I can sort of put a lot of them and you know, it kind of in a, you know, same with men by the way, you know, in a bucket, I guess. And then there’s just these people that stand out like that’s not that’s outside of the norm, you know, of you. Uh, it’s being another one of those people, you’re outside of the norm of other women that I’ve met, you know, but I have this perspective, you know, it’s I don’t have met all the women. Um, so there’s something different in my opinion, you know, about you, you are direct, you are, you know, I mean, you’re not a pushover, you know, by any means and uh, and I really admire that because I would just think that um there’s there’s like safety in numbers, there’s safety that, you know, I think it’s maybe easier. Just just when you look at If 75% of the it industry is men. Uh, do I not need to stand out as much, you know, to kind of get lifted up? You know, just things like that because you’re a leader. How, tell me about how you got to be a leader in I. T. Because that’s even more exceptional.

[00:33:18] Renay Rutter: Um I think, you know, just from the onset I told you about listening to people horse smart or just listening to people in general probably has got a lot more value than we realize because you ask a question of anybody and let’s just say I tended to be around a lot of males. Um, and they take the time to answer the question for you. You are not only boosting your knowledge, you are boosting their enthusiasm and their confidence. And they respond by wanting to share more, either with you or with the next person who asks. And so, um it’s it’s not manipulative, but it’s one of those things I know when I ask people to explain something to me that I’m pushing just a little pride button on them that makes them want to do a good job explaining it to me right, um or a good job the next time they talk to someone um and maybe they’ll have a little more patience or they’ll go down the path that they wouldn’t have done before and if that applies specifically to women great right, you know that woman asked me the question and she didn’t look at me like she didn’t understand a word I said, she actually at least appreciated what was I was talking about and then guess what we do understand a lot of what you say

[00:34:40] Evan Francen: when I’ve heard learned over again from uh from women I think but I don’t know if I’ve ever heard it directly, I think I’ve read about it and I’ve seen it maybe in tweets and things like that references to a bro culture, you know, do you feel like there’s a bro culture

[00:35:00] Renay Rutter: a two degree? Um I just kind of refused to just accept it when I see it happened, right? But yeah the bro culture started with the you know the men’s room stuff or let’s go out and have a cigar smoke or you know whatever and women started getting into that, you know the happy hour situation or the networking things started to be a little more inclusive. The dinners and things like that wasn’t just the men, the sales people end up being more women so then you have a little more concession there. Um But I did feel um at least once in my career that the bro culture um was profiling the kind of person they wanted to be the next C. I. O. For instance, you know, they expected it to be a man because the men were talking all the technical details and what they um in my opinion we’re overlooking was that um maybe a little um one dimensional and that may be a good C. I. O. Has the ability to think more broadly and in a business sense and people sense and how to implement technology, you know, versus just the technical astuteness. Right? So uh that’s that’s where I tend to try to get people expand their thinking beyond bro culture because women due process things differently, wouldn’t you say? Can I ask you guys another question when we talk about fixing the broken industry and talking the same language and a lot of the challenges that our customers have are explaining or even the I. T. People of our customers explaining to executive leadership or boards or committees why it’s necessary to do that thing. You know why that vulnerability can’t that’s a risk that really you need to not overlook and getting getting others to understand it when they’re not in the bro culture. Right? Don’t you think women might be a good addition to helping pull all that together?

[00:37:00] Evan Francen: Oh yeah. Absolutely. I think as many different perspectives as possible

[00:37:06] Renay Rutter: because if if if it’s true and it is right that there are fewer women in the actual technical positions, but there are probably more of an equal number of of women in maybe leadership or management that touches those things that like women um consultants, I think they are particularly effective because of how they can connect the dots for customers. Not that men can’t but I think women are uniquely able to sense when somebody isn’t quite getting it right or needs to go down a different path or has another agenda at the table, right?

[00:37:42] Brad Nigh: Yeah. I said it multiple times with like working with Megan or you know, Laurie where it’s like trying to talk through whatever issue and it’s like they’ll they’ll have an idea. It’s like I never would have even considered that just just not how my brain is wired. So Yeah, absolutely. It’s great to have. Um Yeah.

[00:38:05] Evan Francen: Well and just, you know, we’ve also been involved in solving really difficult problems before whether they be business problems, whether their problems with information security, personal problems, even like, I mean there’s an example even this weekend, you know, working on the deck, you know, I’m stuck on a freaking corner that I can’t figure out, I’m gonna cut the wood. Yeah. And you just bring in a different perspective and it’s not the same perspective that thinks like I do. Mhm. If you think like I do, you’re gonna look at the same problem, you’re gonna have the same damn frustration I have and we’re never gonna get it. So Marla’s comes out. My wife comes out, she looks, she’s like, what are you doing? I’m like, well, this damn corner, I can’t figure it out. She’s like, why don’t you just do this and that? And I’m like, Where the hell were you? 20 minutes

[00:39:01] Brad Nigh: ago? Uh huh. Girl. But

[00:39:05] Renay Rutter: they say it is they say, you know, when you’re building an organization or hiring people, you’re not supposed to hire somebody just like you. So there’s merit to that, right? And uh, and that’s what I that’s why I like, and I think when you go back to, how did I get to be a leader? I think it was an appreciation for making sure that we were looking at all sides of things and I don’t know that that’s just a female thing. It’s just a person thing. So I go back to the uniqueness of who everybody is. But security needs more people who want to ask questions and listen to the answers.

[00:39:43] Brad Nigh: That second part is the key lot of last questions and then just tune out because they already made up their mind.

[00:39:52] Evan Francen: Yeah, that’s true too. One I think, you know, and anybody who’s I mean, I have been around enough when the I mean, this is going to be a stereotype for sure that women think differently than men.

[00:40:05] Brad Nigh: Yeah.

[00:40:06] Evan Francen: And so it’s that different thinking. I think that’s so refreshing. And that was one of the stories I often share rene about you coming here, You know, it was different thinking. I mean, it was so stale, it was so dull, it was so boring, we weren’t solving any problems in the leadership team here, and we we knew that we needed a different perspective. And so we were intentional about hiring a woman because of the fresh perspective, because of the the creative ways of looking things creative versus what we’re what we were used to. And it proved out to be 100% correct, you know? So, just reinforced if that was a stereotype, Well, this experience just reinforced it, you know,

[00:40:57] Brad Nigh: good stereotypes.

[00:41:00] Evan Francen: Yeah, it was like, we should hire more women, you know what I mean? And so, you know, Vinnie and Binnie, thanks a lot different than you do,

[00:41:09] Renay Rutter: yep, she’s

[00:41:11] Evan Francen: not, she’s like a there are different types of women. I’m

[00:41:15] Renay Rutter: learning. You

[00:41:16] Brad Nigh: think it is different is the thought processes, there’s that similar, like, just again, in your face. Very direct. No, beating around the bush. Okay, here’s what I need to know. Here’s what I don’t understand. Just again, telling it like it is it I don’t know, it’s refreshing. I don’t know what the right where it is for that, but it’s it’s been fantastic.

[00:41:50] Renay Rutter: So, you know, go ahead. I was just thinking what the industry needs to keep moving the ball and keeping the momentum and even accelerating that, right is more people people not just men or women more people who appreciate asking the questions, listening and being direct about it you know and I think the part that have you ever heard how women how men process and compartmentalized? You heard this one right? So you guys have a box for everything right? You have the box for when you’re hanging out in your garage, you have the box for when you’re watching a sporting event. You have a boxer when you’re talking to me, you have a boxer when you’re talking to the kids or whatever, right? And so you you put on your box mod and you compartmentalize and that’s how your brain functions that focuses whereas women we take all those boxes and every single one is related in some fashion or another. Right? So when you’re saying something I’m not just in my um my kitchen mode or my gardening mode or you know um my friends mode or might you know be the wife mode. I’ve got all those modes always constantly looking for a relationship. So when you’ve got security problems or I. T. Problems you guys have a box for every problem. I think a woman a woman at the table is regardless if she’s focused on a box or not she’s going to look at how that box fits with some of the other boxes maybe before you even get there right? She may not have the depth on the box but she’s gonna know that’s going to be a thing. And so I think that’s where that is refreshing. And even when you say bringing me onto the leadership team, you know, you guys had boxes for all your problems or whatever the issues were that you wanted to think through. And I would look at one box and then I would see how it’s related to another box. And so in solving one you kind of got halfway to solving the other

[00:43:36] Evan Francen: ones. Yeah. Yeah. It was one you know, I’m thinking that’s true because I’ve heard that same thing. I’ve heard the same boxes and you know women are like a ball of wire, right? Electrical wire constantly going. And I wonder because to me boxes, opening boxes, closing boxes seems very binary. Right? It’s either the box is open to the boxes closed in this box or I’m not in this box. So and I don’t think men can be in multiple boxes. We may think we can but we actually just close the box really quick and opened another one. Really quick. I don’t think we so if that’s true then that sort of fits more with computers. That’s how computer.

[00:44:25] Renay Rutter: I’m totally with you on this one. I total I tend to agree with you on that, yep.

[00:44:31] Evan Francen: And so if but then the thing about information security that’s not an issue.

[00:44:37] Renay Rutter: Yeah. No. And it’s not completely binary, right? As binary components.

[00:44:42] Evan Francen: Right? And actually the most significant challenge in our industry is actually analog. It’s people. There you go. People are the biggest risk. People, you know, their habits and things like that. So it just shows that people are using computers. So if men are binary, I mean this is just theory. I don’t know if it’s even close to being true, but men think like computers on off and we here’s another thing and this is gonna be definitely Syria type of. My wife is listening, she’ll appreciate it. Computers only do what you tell them to do.

[00:45:17] Brad Nigh: So,

[00:45:20] Evan Francen: you know, my

[00:45:22] Renay Rutter: wife. So yeah, you know, and so here we go. I get a little uncomfortable when we get this far with stereotypes because I do feel we’re also unique. But you’re right. There are some tendencies that seem to be true. I know, but it’s uh so if the security industry really does need that um you know, it’s more social and analog and people related. I think you’re onto something and how women can be a part of that. It’s even like when you take that specialist, that guy that’s really good at. Um and I don’t know, data storage management, right? And you say, well you’re so good at that will make you a team lead over all the other data storage guys and we’re gonna throw the help desk team and there are something weird, I don’t know. But you just took them from one role that required the opening and closing of boxes potentially and stuck them in another role that had to open up this realm of, you know, interpersonal relationships that maybe wasn’t not an assumed fit or shouldn’t be an assumed fit, right? That plays anywhere, right? Even in an HR role or sales are all just because you go to one thing doesn’t mean you’re going to be good at that bigger picture, people thing.

[00:46:31] Evan Francen: I don’t want people to read into it more than what was what I intended because if you were to take that, you could easily read into it that men are better with computers than women and that’s not at all the intent. I know some hello, good, you know, female hackers that, you know, so it’s not that I’m just trying to think if men just think more binary, I don’t know.

[00:46:58] Renay Rutter: Or maybe it’s a comfort zone, right? You’re you’re still doing that, so you just keep doing that and then, you know,

[00:47:05] Evan Francen: Yeah. So you uh oh, somebody who’s getting into our industry, somebody who’s new, do you think that uh, a woman, would she be more uh would she be more prone to feeling intimidated, do you think than a man getting into our industry?

[00:47:28] Renay Rutter: I hope not.

[00:47:29] Evan Francen: Yeah, I’m not too,

[00:47:31] Renay Rutter: I don’t, I don’t see why, but it’s it’s all on, it’s all this is where the uniqueness comes in and I don’t think it’s stereotypes, but um any anybody who’s um, you know, maybe considered minority in any fashion, would they have to be intimidated in the security industry? I hope not. Right. Um I believe in particular fr secure is a very inclusive company and we tried that to get the message out to the industry that we’re here about fixing the industry, right? Not certain people in the industry or certain sized companies even, Right, it’s about everything. So I hope not. I hope it’s based on personal interests and confidence, Right? But I think our biggest challenges taking somebody from interest and wanting to learn to building enough confidence to follow through. And so maybe that’s where the play is, where woman might need a little bigger nudge or minority might need a little bigger nudge that a guy would. Right.

[00:48:34] Brad Nigh: But I think part of it too is is the company culture. I I’ve worked at places where it absolutely was, would have been that tough and it was uncomfortable for me, even with some of that, like a bro culture or whatever ever you want to say it. So, yeah, I think finding the right company is a huge huge part or something that you just I’ve seen, where there is no way they would succeed, just was not going to ever happen.

[00:49:05] Evan Francen: Right, Well, just the numbers would tell you that there would be some sense of Because when you have 75% of one Type in 25% of another type, you know, That’s where the bro culture comes from. Right? The 75% of their type. Things that they’re the only type. Forget about this. Oh wait, there’s other types. You know, you just get so engrossed in your own sort of thing. And then when the one of the 25% wants to, you know, collaborate with the 75% I mean, I can see how it would be like, you know, who the hell are you? You know, you’re not one of me. You know, I mean, male, female, you know, races, whatever. It’s just I think that’s just sort of the way things go. Mhm. And I agree. I don’t want ever I don’t want anybody to ever feel intimidated in this industry. I don’t care whatever. You know what I mean? There’s a place here for everybody. Absolutely. We’ve got gobs and gobs of open positions, supposedly in our industry will then all ages, All races, all sexes, all everything right? We gotta fill these positions. The only thing you got to be. It’s just don’t be a jerk.

[00:50:22] Brad Nigh: Yeah. Well,

[00:50:25] Renay Rutter: you know what? Here’s another question for you. What if women don’t want to work in security?

[00:50:31] Evan Francen: Well, there’s no, it’s fine.

[00:50:33] Renay Rutter: You know, saying so, maybe the mixes there’s not that many in it because it’s just not something they’re interested in.

[00:50:39] Evan Francen: That’s true. That could be very true. Good point. Yeah. I didn’t think of that. Yeah.

[00:50:46] Brad Nigh: See you doing it. Art again, Your

[00:50:49] Evan Francen: creative approaches to things. My brain hurts.

[00:50:54] Renay Rutter: I just know a lot of really smart women in the security industry and I love seeing that and I would love to see more. But at the same time, you know, if somebody is not interested, maybe they’re going to do better with their unique talents in a different industry that’s going to help us in some way indirectly. You never know. It’s all those crazy wires hooking up somehow.

[00:51:15] Evan Francen: It’s true, right? Because people have gifts. People are, You know have certain gifts. My daughter, my 15 year old daughter, I can’t see her ever being an information security because her gift is like I could I could see her being like she’s just a free spirit kind of person. I can see her being a missionary all over the globe just never staying in one spot. That’s just kind of how she’s she’s wired. She doesn’t want to sit in front of a computer or in front of a book for any more than like because I’ve tried I tried it’s like let’s do smart, do we know together we can build you know cool led lights and really cool electronic stuff. No Called 15 minutes. And she was like this is stupid.

[00:52:05] Renay Rutter: So her gift is challenging yours, right. Her gift is always on the outside looking in making people think about why they think the way they do and getting people to just maybe look, you know, a little more liberally, that stuff I don’t know.

[00:52:21] Evan Francen: Well, the one thing I learned here too is um I mean, I’ve learned a lot that’s going to be good for me to reflect on the conversation. Um, but you know, the whole it makes a hell of a lot of sense to as much as you can, to fight we all stereotype, but to fight that and to take somebody at face value for who they are right. Don’t jump to conclusions about. I mean, I know we have this, we have our initiative zero here where, you know, you always give people the benefit of the doubt, give people the opportunity to be who they are with you, you know, kind of thing. Um All right. So we other things I had sort of on our show notes, um uh you know, the talent shortage problem in our industry. I think there’s a greater role for women to play. I don’t know to what extent that is because like you said, maybe a lot of lot of women don’t want to be in this industry for whatever reason, You know, there could be a ton of reasons, I don’t know.

[00:53:29] Renay Rutter: Or maybe we should think differently about what skill this industry needs and then maybe that women feel a different skill set and not the stereotypical technical acumen. Maybe it’s that skill set of talking to people and largely bringing together a strategy for a company. That’s one thing and I know we’re running out of time, but that’s one thing that when I first started in this industry, I felt like I wanted to help explain things to people. So I think that I’m missing a little bit of my purpose here. Still I’m trying to develop that. How do I reach people to talk more about why security is important? I don’t have to tell them what to fix, but I need to help them understand why it’s important. So an option there maybe look at all the skills that people or women can bring to the industry, not just the obvious hacking one.

[00:54:16] Evan Francen: Yeah, for sure. It’s a very, very broad industry with lots and lots of opportunities. Well, good, this is a good uh a good, I think introduction to the series. I’m really looking forward to talking to some of our uh some of the other ladies in our, in our in our company because I think we’re going to bring just awesome perspectives to. That’ll be fun and brad. You’re leading next week. So you, I did send an email this morning to all three or 23, uh the three of them to see if they want to and if they do, we’ll arrange for it, you know what I mean?

[00:54:58] Brad Nigh: Or? Yeah.

[00:55:00] Evan Francen: Alright, good stuff. I got three news things real quick. We are running out of time, but man, it was an awesome discussion. Renay super, super grateful. Thank you. Uh First one is from the hacker news, I think anything with the hacker sounds sort of through done, but whatever, that’s what it is. Uh And the title of the spies can listen to your conversations by watching a light bulb in the room. How does that make you feel? What kind of light? But it’s incandescent? Or is it fluorescent? What kind of light bulbs?

[00:55:38] Renay Rutter: I just want to turn off the light brown himself. That sounds binary.

[00:55:46] Brad Nigh: I was looking at that. It sounds it looks like it has to be a overhead light where the bulb is exposed, dependent light where the bulb is exposed. So just cover your bulbs.

[00:55:58] Evan Francen: Right. Well this is another one that’s kind of side channel attacks.

[00:56:01] Brad Nigh: Yeah, it’s really cool. I mean it’s a cool, it’s but I don’t know how practically Yeah, not real practical,

[00:56:11] Evan Francen: no, not, not not really at all. Um but this was it came out of a team of academics from Israel. It’s always the Israelis always doing something like this. It’s pretty cool stuff. It wasn’t it? Uh Which um firewall, people power No, no, no. Power check. Yeah, Came out of Israel right, and it’s going to be presented a black cat. 2020 if you want to know more about it’s called Lamb phone. Uh The attack is it is interesting, but it’s not practical, I I don’t think I’m not worried about my own home, I’m not gonna start covering my light bulbs. Are you brad?

[00:56:57] Brad Nigh: I don’t know if I have any that are just hanging out. So I think I’m okay.

[00:57:04] Evan Francen: Well I am coming over to your house today so I’ll check out.

[00:57:08] Brad Nigh: Okay if you don’t mess the painting that I’m halfway through.

[00:57:14] Evan Francen: Yeah. Yeah. Alright. The next one is from naked security which I always I still giggle every time I hear naked security. So folks, billions of devices affected by universal plug and play vulnerability

[00:57:29] Brad Nigh: again. What? That never happens. It never

[00:57:34] Evan Francen: if you have universal plug and play turned on you probably deserve to be hacked. Yeah.

[00:57:42] Brad Nigh: Yeah but that was that because it’s like everything it’s not just your computer. It’s like

[00:57:50] Evan Francen: yeah your IOT devices

[00:57:52] Renay Rutter: Yeah. How appropriate coming from naked security because that’s definitely the definition. Uh

[00:58:00] Brad Nigh: huh Yeah.

[00:58:02] Evan Francen: And so the fact that it was a universal plug and play vulnerability didn’t surprise me. What did surprise me was the number of devices

[00:58:12] Brad Nigh: Yeah, that’s a big one

[00:58:14] Evan Francen: billions of devices. Now what can they do with this? It was a side server side request forgery. Like vulnerability. They didn’t give details. There’s a CV out about it.

[00:58:25] Brad Nigh: So it places a di DAS type of Yeah attacked some reflection attacks or something.

[00:58:36] Evan Francen: Well it’s called call stranger and it looks like it’s a, you know, there’s a potential to, you know, configure devices and then actually exfiltrate data through the, you know, the universal plug and play protocol. So is that simply just a Adidas type of an attack? It is it does sound like it’s something that you could configure things.

[00:58:57] Brad Nigh: Yeah, I guess it would depend on what the

[00:58:58] Evan Francen: devices anyway. If you have universal plug and play turned on and you can turn it off. Your IOT device doesn’t require it, turn it off and or block it, you know, do something, it feels right at the firewall. Uh And that’s what that goes with everything. Whether you’re susceptible to this vulnerability or not, there will be another one for universal plug and play. It’s always been vulnerable. All right. The last one was homeland security. A warning from them. A Windows 10 were mobile bug. This one comes from TechCrunch. This came out six days ago. I’m surprised I didn’t hear about it until I started doing research for the show. It’s called Snb Ghost freaking Snb man. Smb and Universal. Right?

[00:59:52] Brad Nigh: Yeah. Can we get rid of S and

[00:59:54] Evan Francen: B. Well this is another one. As long as you’re following just normal best practices, you shouldn’t be vulnerable to this. But I would never have SMB open to the internet, you wouldn’t be able to get to this port, you would be able to compromise this vulnerability. Uh maybe even, you know.

[01:00:16] Brad Nigh: Yeah, I mean we’ve seen

[01:00:21] Evan Francen: uh you

[01:00:22] Brad Nigh: see it in I. R. S all the time,

[01:00:26] Evan Francen: but you never should.

[01:00:27] Brad Nigh: Well I agree that that doesn’t mean

[01:00:30] Evan Francen: that’s what I’m saying man, the best practices just follow best practice. Yeah or no,

[01:00:39] Brad Nigh: I mean it’s easy to say but people still just don’t do it.

[01:00:46] Evan Francen: So you’re saying we have more of the industry defects. Yeah. Okay. I guess we’ll get to work on that. Alright, well that’s it, that’s absolutely 84 of those three news stories. Uh we don’t have to go into depth on any one of us again. Thank you Renay for giving us a great start to the beginning of this series. We’re lining up our guests for next week brad. It’ll be you leading. Uh We have we can’t even take the same sort of format. I’d love to hear perspectives from others who aren’t. I think his Renay is somebody that I certainly respect. Your bold, you’re a good leader, you are confident, you do stand your ground. You know, maybe one of the other women that we talked, it won’t be quite like that, but yet they’re very successful in our industries. It’ll be it’ll be cool to hear those things, wow. Uh Yeah and he either one of you have any shout outs, you’d like to give to anybody before we wrap up.

[01:01:43] Renay Rutter: Mhm. Just gonna shout out to both of you guys because being part of this, I was your guest on show eight and now you’re at show 80 something 84. So I’m I’m super super proud that I can continue to be part of what we’re trying to do to fix the industry. So, um yeah, today’s conversation was great. There’s just so much more to talk about and I really encourage you to talk to more and more women and more and more people to get perspective. It’s great.

[01:02:12] Evan Francen: Yeah, we will do that. Maybe we’ll have you be a book end on the other side of this too, you know, as you listen to love it. Yeah, As you listen to the women that we talked to during the series, you might have some more comments.

[01:02:25] Renay Rutter: Yeah, that’s a great idea. Let me give that some thought and make sure I’m listening to these. Okay. Maybe participating at some point. You’re not listening to everyone. I help I have any

[01:02:38] Evan Francen: idea how much work we

[01:02:39] Renay Rutter: put into this when you start putting more women on the show. Maybe I’ll listen, Mark.

[01:02:45] Brad Nigh: Uh

[01:02:48] Renay Rutter: All right. What? You know what? This is going to go places, I can feel it already

[01:02:53] Evan Francen: brad. You got any shout outs?

[01:02:56] Brad Nigh: You know what I’m trying to think if I do. Uh huh.

[01:03:03] Evan Francen: You have nobody in your life to be thankful for.

[01:03:06] Brad Nigh: Well, yeah, obviously, I think, you know, just Just the 15 still like watching them overcome things as we grow and through this new reality and adapting and just everybody, you know, is just doing such a great job of working the other and not imploding.

[01:03:30] Evan Francen: Yeah. Yeah. Well, I’m gonna give a shout out to my mom. Uh my mother truly was. I think I’m guessing there were probably Less than 10% of the it industry when she started were feet were female. Uh you know, IBM and she not just not just I. T. But IBM, you know, big corporate America. And you know, I’m gonna probably text her or call her this afternoon. Uh because I have a newfound respect for her as I’m considering these things more.

[01:04:06] Brad Nigh: You know, you mentioned that and I just just clicked, my mom did coding with punch cards before I was born and then stayed home. I wonder if that’s also part of why. Right. It was a different culture.

[01:04:21] Evan Francen: I should have my mom on

[01:04:22] Renay Rutter: the podcast. That’s exactly what it’s going to say. You need to get your mom on this totally.

[01:04:28] Evan Francen: She’s kind of crazy.

[01:04:30] Renay Rutter: But okay, perfect. I mean, come on. So are you, we’ll get to see how the apple doesn’t fall too far from the tree. That

[01:04:39] Evan Francen: explains it now. I

[01:04:40] Brad Nigh: know

[01:04:41] Evan Francen: brad, you should, I want to know more about your mom too. So let’s talk more about this later. Yeah. If she’s got a technical background, maybe she’d be a good perspective to, we could do like a whole,

[01:04:53] Renay Rutter: I’m serious. Yeah, I got a mom too. There you go again.

[01:04:59] Evan Francen: Moms everywhere. All right, well thank you to our listeners. We do dig all you folks will, most of them. There’s probably three that I don’t dig brad’s a little harder on people than that. They get up to like six or 7 now that you don’t dig.

[01:05:17] Brad Nigh: It’s not like that.

[01:05:18] Evan Francen: Yeah. Let us know what you think about this show. We certainly love to hear your ideas. Uh whatever your ideas are good or bad, you know, we’d love to hear that you can email us at un security at proton mail dot com. You social types can follow us on twitter if you like. I’m at Evan francine, brad’s at brad and I and Renay is she’s got some twitter fu also she’s at Renay Rutter. We have like no creativity in our twitter handles whatsoever.

[01:05:48] Renay Rutter: Not at Renay rather though I was at something else I think.

[01:05:52] Evan Francen: No, I looked at it this morning.

[01:05:54] Renay Rutter: Oh really? Okay. I must have to uh whatever you say, whatever you say. Well,

[01:06:03] Evan Francen: I got some ocean skills.

[01:06:06] Evan Francen: The companies we work for our social to uh seems like everybody’s social now, everybody’s got something to say, try to stay out of the muck and mire, security, Studio twitter is @StudioSecurity and FR Secure’s twitter is @FRSecure so feel free to follow them. They’ll have some goodies, I’m sure for you also uh that’s it. So talk to you all next week. Thanks.

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